NN: Yes, we've been here for a couple of days. We got to see the "Hard Rock Cafe," the skyscrapers...

NE: Some bars and clubs, and just overall walked around the city. It was good, we had a good time.

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I have been a fan since 1998 and Tales of Mystery And Imagination. So let's go back in time a little bit for the next question, which I'm sure many old Nocturnal Rites fans would like to know: how and why did Anders Zakrisson leave?

NE: Anders was never really the member of the band. He was just singing on the albums. We needed a real, full-time singer. And he did not want to spend too much time on the band, did not want to tour, and all that, so when we found Jonny, that was that.

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Jonny, how did you get the gig?

JL: Oh, Nils [Eriksson] just asked me. We knew each other before.

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And then the band drastically changed its direction. Afterlife was very different from previous works. Was it something you wanted to do for a while or it was a spontaneous move?

NE: Well, not drastically, but we had to make some adjustments. The voice is the leading melodic instrument in our music. And when the voice changes, the direction automatically changes with it. I think that Jonny's voice triggered other things, including our writing, so we went with more aggressive stuff, because his voice was harsher. We never sat down and said: "Hey, let's play harsher stuff or get more modern." It doesn't work like that.

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Since 2000, you've released four albums: Afterlife, Shadowland, New World Messiah, and The Grand Illusion. And all of them are fairly different from each other. How did you achieve this "non-repetition"? Do you have the pre-conceived notion as to how the album is going to come out before you start working on it? How does the songwriting work in the band anyway?

NN: Well, it's usually Nils, Fredrik, and I come up with basic ideas for songs. And then we go to the studio and everybody just makes their contribution to the sound, and we never know how it's going to end up sounding.

NE: Yes, the good thing is that we never have any pre-conceived notions about the album. We never sit down and say: "Next album should sound like this or like that." I don't know any other way to do it. We just write songs and see how they come out so that all of us like them.

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What about the actual sound? How do you know which sound you"re going to achieve?

NN: In the studio, it goes layer by layer: the drums, the bass, the keyboards, the guitars, and so on. And on every level we get new ideas for the songs and the sound, all the time. This is when the album really comes to life. In the studio.

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Who writes the vocal melodies?

NE: We all do. Even Jonny gives some ideas some times.

JL: Although 99% of the lyrics come from Nils [Eriksson].

NE: Jonny definitely participates in the creating of the vocal melodies, because they have to fit his voice. But, yeah, I gotta give him the words that he knows! (everyone laughs)

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So, Jonny, they just give you the lyrics sheet and tell you: "Sing this"?

JL: Yeah.

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It's a tricky thing, isn't it? For example, on the latest Iron Maiden album...

NN: Dance Of Death

...you could clearly see that Bruce Dickinson was given a lot more words that the lines in a song required.

NE: Yes, it is necessary that he would feel comfortable with the lyrics that he is going to sing. And all the subsequent work in the studio is exactly for that: to see if any adjustments are needed to be made with the arrangements. We are not afraid to compromise at any point.

NN: Everyone in a band participates on every stage. If I don't like a cymbal somewhere, I just tell it to Owe, and we can change it. Or if Owe doesn't like a certain guitar part, it's OK to change it too. Everybody is in it. Everybody makes input.

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Afterlife clearly had a different mood and a different style to it. What was the main idea behind this album that you were trying to convey?

NE: Like I said, we didn't really plan that much ahead. We knew that Jonny was our new singer and his voice was rougher. So we worked around that a lot, and that triggered some new ideas. And I think we have always been a few steps ahead of the trends. For example, back in 1995, we released our first album, and not that many bands were doing the whole "fantasy" thing. In a couple of years everybody started doing it. And then in 1999 we stopped doing it, right when the whole theme was at its peak. Instead we went a bit darker, and now everybody is doing "dark"! Very few bands are doing "fantasy" anymore, the dragons, the swords...

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Obviously, you guys took the full advantage of the "fantasy" explosion of 1997-98, when Nocturnal Rites became very popular.

NE: Yes, we always went with what we were doing all the way. But when we see that a bulk of other bands is starting to do exactly the same thing, we think it's time to step away and do something else.

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That is very admirable. However, when you are attempting to do something different, is there ever a fear that the public would not accept your new direction? Metal fans can be pretty conservative.

NN: I think, the most important thing is for you to like what you are doing. Otherwise, you just can't play music, if you yourself think it's crap. So ultimately you must do what you feel is right.

NE: Obviously, we like playing for the fans and going places like this one to play for them. When the fans like it, it's always important to us, otherwise we wouldn't be here. But one can never compromise with the songwriting and doing what you like to do, because that would be the end of the band. Everybody will get tired quickly, both you yourself and the fans. This is why it is so important to focus on yourself when writing songs.

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What do you think is more important: the catchiness or the technique? Or are you trying to make it 50/50?

NE: I don't think we're trying at all! (everyone laughs) We are just writing songs. As long as the melodies are good. And, you know, good melodies are really universal. You can take a pop song and make a metal song out of it.

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As the Abba Tribute has conclusively shown.

NE: Yes, exactly. It's all about the production and the performance, in my mind. If you write great melodies, you can be as technical as you want: you're still going to have a great song. So I don't think it matters.

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I must say that I enjoyed the lyrics on the last album quite a bit. Usually, as we all know, the lyrics for many metal bands are rather secondary. Or even tertiary. But on the latest album I see that some thought went into them.

NE: I don't know, that's good, I guess. I agree that the lyrics are secondary. Because you can have a great song with crappy lyrics, but you cannot have a crappy song with good lyrics. That would simply not be a good song! So lyrics are secondary. But a really good song is even greater if the lyrics are good, you know. But I try my best.

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So the other guys don't help you at all?

NE: Nah, they leave me in the cold. Idiots.

JL: Yeah... fuck you too! (everyone laughs)

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Jonny, it doesn't really matter to you what you sing, then?

JL: Nope.

NE: "I'm gay. I'm really gay." (everyone laughs)

NN: No, he doesn't care. Actually, I think that it saves us time that Nils is writing all the lyrics. I think on a good songwriting team everybody has a different role. This is how it has been since 1997, and it has been working out well, I think.

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On Grand Illusion the lyrics seem a little pessimistic. Like "Fools Never Die"...

NN: Well... isn't it true?

NE: Well, I don't think I'm trying to be pessimistic. I'm just writing things like they are. I'm not trying to glorify the world. Critical, maybe, but not pessimistic. Trying to make a change, but from the other end of the scale.

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Is there a concept behind Nocturnal Rites? What exactly are you trying to tell the world?

NE: Well, I don't think there is one single message that we want to deliver...

JL: Drink beer!

NE: Yeah, that must be it... Seriously though, I think the world is a weird place, where strange things happen, and I write about that. "Fools Never Die," for example. It's a good representation of the whole album. Take a history book, pick a page, and point your finger: you will find an idiot trying to run things. History repeats itself, alright, but eventually it will all come to an end.

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That's a very Nordic philosophy. A little bit of Ragnarok?

NE: But it's true! And we cannot stop it.

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Tell me about the music scene in Sweden. Does metal get played on the radio? Is it popular? Is it getting better? Or worse?

NN: It's getting a lot better. We have a lot of radio shows, nationally. TV shows and whatnot... TV is not mainstream, but it's definitely not underground anymore.

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Do you think it would be good if metal became mainstream again? In the 80s it has become mainstream, became huge, and, consequently, lost its focus and its edge, turning into pop music, for all intents and purposes.

NE: I think the thing about every subculture is that it is exactly that: a subculture. When it becomes mainstream, becomes something for everyone, it is inevitably going to die out, like it did in the 80s. I think metal fans want it for their own "clique," saying: "This is our thing, and don't you touch it!" So when a subcultural thing becomes mainstream and eventually dies out, the next subculture takes its place with the "clique." So I would prefer, you know, not to become "a lot bigger." Although, of course, it would be good and all, but... What do you guys think?

NN: Yeah.

JL: Yep. (everyone laughs)

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Jonny agrees with everything, doesn't he?

NE: Yes, he is easy to work with.

JL: That's because you are the boss!

NE: Everything you say has to go through me first. (everyone laughs)

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Can you make a living by playing heavy metal?

NE: Not all year round, no.

NN: If we were playing live more, then -- yes, but we're not quite there yet.

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Are you keeping your touring to the optimum?

NE: Yes. We're touring enough that it is still fun for us. We don't see it as work, we just go out and play. Just to see people go nuts. (everyone laughs) So we have other jobs, but they allow us to tour as much as we need to. And we've been touring pretty much nonstop since September 2005. We intend to continue throughout the summer and then stop some time in the fall and, hopefully, get down to recording.

NN: We'll have to stop touring at some point soon, because it's hard to focus on the songwriting while being on the road.

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Did you ever have this thing, when you write a song on the road and love it so much you just want to get out there and play it, without practicing or recording it first?

NN: We have never written a song on the road. It's always at home, in the studio.

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How are the album sales?

NE: They could be better, of course, but they have been steadily rising for a while now.

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I encounter this thing with bands that are about your status: the band started out on the very bottom, built this grassroots following, and is now on the verge of breaking through big, but they are starting to consider other issues: like would the new album be liked, should we change the style or should we stick to the same formula, etc. Do you think this may be detrimental to the art?

NE: Ultimately, it's about whether or not you like it yourself. Obviously, every band wants to be more successful and sell more records. Otherwise, you can stay in your basement forever and write songs until you're 80 and make the cd sampler which you will listen to alone. But that's not why we're making music. For us it's just the way to go out there, play, and have a good time. So, naturally, there are compromises. There must be compromises in every band. We don't want to write really complicated stuff that nobody can listen to. We also want to rock.

NN: We are fortunate in a sense that nobody around us tells us what to play and what not to play. We just do what we want.

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In the 80s it was not uncommon for the record labels to interfere with the songwriting process and the recording. I hope it's not a problem for you, not yet at least.

JL: Nope.

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Look at this guy!

JL: Well, you guys are saying all these smart things, I can't keep up! (everyone laughs)

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On the DVD, I saw some footage of the performance with the symphony orchestra. Is it something that is going to be released as a full album one day?

NN: I don't know. We have it finished. It was professionally shot, with seven cameras, it looked and sounded good. But we don't know when or how is it going to come out, because it's only about forty minutes. We did this as part of the bigger show, with other bands. But we can't have it on a separate DVD, because it wouldn't be right, you know: only 40 minutes!

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What about the actual music cd?

NN: Well, we'd like to keep the visual part of it as well, because I think it's very important.

NE: Maybe as a bonus to something?

NN: Yeah, that would be good. And it was a lot of fun to do, really.

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What did the classical musicians think about playing with the metal band? This "clash of cultures" always intrigued me.

NN: I think 90% of them were really happy.

NE: Yeah, it was fun for them too, because they are also, in a way, always doing the same thing. I mean, obviously, classical music varies, but it was definitely fun for them to do something so different, so out of the ordinary. Same thing as it was for us, you know: doing something totally different! Like you said, it was a "clash," and both sides appreciated the opportunity.

JL: We had a lot of fun. And drinking beer with them after, it was fun too. In fact, they probably drink even more beer than we do.

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Where in Sweden do you live?

JL: Umeo. Up north.

NN: Yeah, with ice bears, reindeer, and...

JL: And penguins. (laughter)

NN: Yep. In fact we have these sticks we use to chase penguins away, as we play.

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Are there any bands in particular that you like to play with or hang out with?

NE: I dunno, we meet a lot of bands on the road, and it's pretty much always good.

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I remember Edguy mentioned that they toured with you and they weren't even sure you guys noticed them.

NE: They said that? Hmm... We knew! (laughter) I liked touring with Hammerfall and Evergrey. It's a lot of great bands out there.

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Any bad incidents? Any problems with anybody? People like to hear those stories.

NE: Nope. Nothing.

NN: Not really. No bad blood. No feuds. Everything was, pretty much, fine.

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Let me get on your case now, Jonny. I name the singer, and you rate him, 1 through 10.

JL: Alright, let's try.

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Let's start with the classics. Geoff Tate.